The white Barbet* is NOT a myth, the first Danish import back in 1996 Malice Noire Diva was black- but 3 of her litter mates were white. She was sired by Flibuste Des Canailles De Verbaux out of Image Des Canailles de Verbaux.... dixit a breeder in Denmark.
"Yes it is born in 1996, The picture was taken in 1998, the day where it was confirmed to the "Le Bourget show" like I asked to its owner to can use it. But, because the Malice Diva eyes problem and the shortage libido of Mellow, I have given up to the plan. Oh yes J. I know well that the white barbet is not a myth. I wanted to speak about this one from Saga.I also know that it's not a genetic impossibility since Bruss the [u]white poodle[/u] (Flibuste's father) is present in the father and in the mother of this litter and that we know that its father : Turnix is a black heterozygote. I wonder only why we have not pictures of it, but now Paula said it to us. I knew Mellow Blanc the Malice Diva's brother and I even failed use it with one of my females but it missed libido completely.
Below is part of Mrs Loiseau's Histoire of Barbet, written in 2001. M Séguéla had done more research on the old lines, but not on the poodle lines.(taken from barbet.free.fr)
"Mais le pas le plus important a été franchi par l'élevage des Saute Ruisseaux qui avait acquiq Ulyssia et l'a faite couvrir par un grand caniche noir :Baron du Prince des Hortillons , faisant fi de l'interdiction de Mme Brestecher et réalisant ainsi la première [i]retrempe avec un caniche .Dans la portée , ont fait souche ; Espadone Eron noir et surtout Esturgeonne acquis par l'élevage acquise par l'élevage des Canailles de Verbaux Estrugeonne couverte en 1990 par un autre grand [b]caniche blanc Bruss[/b] du Haut Paquis ,donnera naissance à un chien médiocre acquis par l'élevage du Domaine du Repaire ( conservatoire des races françaises pour l'ONC ) qui n'osera jamais le faire reproduire, à Fernis acquis par l'élevage du Partage des Eaux qui donnera avec Calypso ( Lynx hors Sérynoire ) :Huron et Hoggarth , à Flibuste qui reproduira avec Fusée ( Duel hors Clalypso ) pour l'élevage du Pré Levèque , en donnnat entre autres . Galion ,Gibus ( acquis par les Malabris de Sologne ) , et Hébene qui restera à l'élevage."[/i] Our responsable is an expert of the "re-incarnated" Barbet/Poodle lines. Keep that in mind.
All about the poodles in many “ Barbet” pedigrees. Consult the poodle pedigree database: http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=143441
About Wycliffe Poodles “Interesting that you mention Wycliffe. All of my standards back in the early 70’s had pure Wycliffe in the 3rd or 4th generation. Jean Lyle did a lot of close line breeding. Wycliffe Thomas(brother to Timoteo) and Ian especially are in my old dogs’ pedigrees many many times. The dogs doing the top winning in the 80’s (mainly Acadia) came down from the same Wycliffe dogs. Ch Haus Brau Executive of Acadia was a top winning dog and was used and doubled up on extensively. Looking at his pedigree it is shocking to see how much inbreeding/linebreeding is behind him. Then to double up on him was just asking for trouble in my opinion. The renowned Ch Acadia Command Performance was one of the results of doubling up on him. Many of us who had his kids saw what this produced…..seizures, bloat, Addison’s to name a few. Both of those dogs bloated. Jean Lyle was, in a way, a gal before her time. She used to preach that we were over vaccinating our dogs and this is what led to some of the problems we were seeing. However, not everyone had the same vaccine protocol, but still had dogs who seized and bloated. We had a bitch who was the result of very close Wycliffe breeding, father/daughter with Executive (Zek) and she too lived a long life. She lived to be 18. However, she had seizures from the age of 2. Without medication she would have seizures about once a month. With meds about twice a year. Seizures and bloat were the 2 most prevalent problems. The Wycliffe bred dogs were bloating very frequently, and seizures were rampant. I, myself, owned 4 dogs from these close breedings (I wasn’t their breeder) who all seized throughout their lives. With 3 of them the onset was early and I hadn’t bred them yet, so they were spayed. The last one was 4 before her first seizure, and had been bred, but luckily having kept in contact with the pups’ owners for years, no one reported any of them having seizures……doesn’t mean they didn’t have them, just that no one observed them. One I know of did have Addisons. The Standard Poodle has been inbred/linebred way too much. The problem was that in order to do an outcross, you had to go to a dog that was not what you want to show….usually lacking in elegance….more “doggy” type, and people didn’t want that type for the show ring. Unfortunately all too often a dog’s winning in the ring has a greater priority than his quality of life and longevity.
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* so has the Barbet.
**knitting/ tricoter.( crossing the front legs when in gait/ allures) Another testimonial: "What I am saying is that we have nothing if we do not have the health and the Poodles continue to to expire at an early age. Type surely will not help us anymore than the best and most wonderful Poodle bred to the breed standard. If we don't have health and longevity then what do we have? We have nothing so finding diversity is the most important thing to start the recovery process in this breed. .... She was a pure Wycliffe girl and simply died of old age(21). No cancer, no other illness, some clouding of the eyes and obviously aged. Now we are bloody lucky to get a Poodle to 10 years old. Right now I am concerned about the health of these Poodles. That is what I am saying".
Take your time and click through Dr. John Armstrong's website. Each page tells a story and is supported by study. You will find that he talks about coefficient of inbreeding at 10 generations. That is a good place to start when looking at pedigrees to see exactly how inbred the dog is. We will try to explain any questions that you may have. 10 generations has been the standard for a while now, but we also need to look further back to see who is behind the dog at 15+ generations. Many dogs descend from the same dogs, or littermates of dogs. In the solids you will see Wycliffe dogs. Sandi can identify the common parti dogs (I don't know much about partis) So, in essence you may have two dogs that you want to mate, but in actuality they are related.
Not only has generations of inbreeding affected health of the population of standard poodles (lots of other breeds too), but it has also affected longevity, litter size...and essentially vigor.
If you get the chance to attend dog shows, whether they be AKC or UKC, take your time to look at the dogs and you will see what Sandi is speaking about. Trends in conformation. The standard poodle in the show ring (AKC particularly) has become a caricature of what it should be. The trend represents long giraffe like necks, straight fronts and overangulated rears. This has affected the working ability of the dogs. As you get to watch dogs move, you will see that these dogs sling their front legs up in front of them, instead of reaching forward and driving with their rear legs. While the poodle is versatile in the sense that they can be taught to do anything and these faults support big hair and flash, when it comes down to it, they are not nearly as agile as a dog that comes near to the standard.
If you are interested in good structure in dogs, a good place to start is with Rachel Page Elliot's "Dogsteps" http://www.dogwise. com/itemdetails. cfm?ID=DAN123.
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Wycliffe poodles... All this talk regarding the Wycliffe dogs……. Many Wycliffe dogs in show rings dogs…..not descendants, but bred by Jean Lyle herself. At that time the biggest problem we saw in that line was bloat. When I look at some of the pedigrees of my standards back then Wycliffe is in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation, and on back. Personally,the biggest affect on the breed was Ch Haus Brau Executive of Acadia. (some good, some bad). He was an unbelievable showman and did great things in the show ring. He was basically all Wycliffe. Breeders wanted what he had, and started tightly line breeding on him……half bro/sis etc. The great Ch Acadia Command Performance was a son of his. Both of these dogs bloated, Command Perf died of it. Breeders doubled up on him too as he was the first really awesome white to come along…..top dog for awhile. Well, the pups from this tight breeding had their share of problems. Seizures were the big thing with these pups. For awhile it seemed like everywhere you looked, standards were having seizures. I have seen them doing it on the grooming table at a dog show. Unfortunately, we couldn’t test for seizures like we could for hips, eyes, skin, etc. So unless someone saw a dog actually have a seizure, one might never know. UKC lets you show them with shorter coats!! There is nothing "wrong" about a Wycliffe dog, in fact most of the dogs you see today are Wycliffe dogs. What happened was Wycliffe was very popular and the dogs were breed and inbred or linebred so much in history that they actually make up most of the gene pool for standard poodles. Non-Wycliffe,is that the dog does not descend from Wycliffe dogs, which is very cool when you study genetic diversity in poodles.
There were five Poodles that started the standards in the US and Canada which caused a huge bottle neck with no diversity. Wycliffe was actually out of Canada and in the fifties and sixties breeders were urged to stay within their lines to breed. Starting with only five Poodles the Wycliffe line had a huge influence on the Poodle world. In 1997 when Jean Lyle passed away it was estimated that Wycliffe lines were behind two-thirds of the Poodle population in the world. As times have gone on it has become apparent that inbreeding so heavily is not the way to go and many (including myself) believe that much of the cause of today's health issues are because of it.
Finding Pedigrees without the influence of Wycliffe is difficult, many of these Poodles or the offspring of the Wycliffe line have become popular sires because of the wins they have accomplished and today it is common knowledge that popular sires have also caused health issues.
It is all about health today as so many Poodles are now leading very short lived lives. It was not uncommon when I first got into Poodles in the 80's for a Standard to live till 16-20 years. Now days it is very difficult to get them beyond 10 years old without some major health problem.
Of course breeding with diversity is much more difficult as you won't get immediate type and style without working at it. Most people today want instant gratification of that show dog and you won't get it if you intend to go after longevity and health as well.
While Jean Lyle so did much for the Poodle breed, there was also much lost in the bottleneck the Wycliffe line created.
Although the Poodle has encountered major health issues, Jean Lyle had a sound and solid grasp of what a nice Poodle should look like. She clearly bred beautiful Poodles, if you read any of her articles you will see this lady was one of the greatest to contribute to the Poodle World. So not to take away from the beautiful Wycliffe Poodles but more so to blame the lack of knowledge in the genetic field of the times she was breeding. Quote from article: Personally, I have always believed that the key to breeding a dog that looks stunning while standing free, and that moves magnificently, is first of all breeding for balanced, ideal body structure. The dog then is not only a beautiful creature standing and "on the move," but it is much more sound, healthy and beautiful until it's dying day, for there are no undue or unnatural strains to cause lowered heads, sagging backs, tucked-under rears, pathetic movement, arthritis and even hip dysplasia. Breeders should devote themselves to producing health-promoting, well-balanced Poodle structure. But they must be aware that is more complicated and much more challenging than simply breeding for lovely heads.
In the show world heads are what the judges see first and side view is what they look for in motion. Jean wanted the whole dog and continually bred for it and the Wycliffe dogs had most of it. It was the thing to do, acquire a Wycliffe dog because of it's beauty and structurely sound bone. Wycliffe was not bad, it was what happened with so many Wycliffe and the lack of knowledge of the times that was bad.
Most of the Wycliffe's don't begin to show up until the 10th generation on todays dogs. What a nice tribute to Mrs Lyle.
There are Wycliffe poodles in some "Barbet" pedigrees.
This probably being themain difference between the "Barbet Modern" and the Authentic Barbet or Vieux Barbet, the look, the morphology and the coat. That in mind, everyone does what they think is best for themselves. Below is another link to some poodle ancestors. The shaping of the coat is a question of grooming.
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